Welcome to the podcast, I digress with your host, Jennifer Dooley, and this week's special
guest, Erica Cassidy, aka Erica Ashley, as some people may know her. This is going to
be a continuation of the episode we had about starting a theater program with, as the name
suggests, a million digressions. So with that being said, I'm going to turn it over to Jennifer
and Erica.
Thank you, Brent. Welcome back. We hope you enjoyed the last episode, a couple of things
I want to say about that episode before we continue. The first is I want to make a correction.
Brent asked me about the number of shows we've done, and I just made up a number. The actual
number is we have put up 105 different titles, and we've done 235 performances, mostly in
the auditorium here at our high school. Also, I wanted to let you know there is a link on
the last podcast episode to another podcast episode from the Theater History Podcast.
I think the guy that runs that is Michael Luger, and it's a whole episode about our
town and how our town is still relevant for 21st century audiences, because I did strongly
suggest that you pick that as your first show if you're doing a straight play, because
you don't have to buy anything to do it. You have to buy the rights, and it's really
a universal production. The guy in the interviews have written a book about eight different
productions and how they did it differently all over the country and I think all over
the 20th century. So you should check that out if you want to know more about our
town. All right, so back to this new fancy episode. So I wanted to introduce Erika, used
to be Ashley, now it's Erika Cassidy. When did you join the theater program? Do you
remember? 2006? Okay, so that was very early in our iteration. What was the first show
you did? Tech Please. That's a great show. Yeah. Yeah, there were some interesting components
of that show. There were indeed. So the story and there's three of them, I think. I think
there's Check Please One, Two, and Three. Right, I think we did one, like there are
one acts, and I think we did Check Please One and Two together. Yes, and I did Three
Later because I think Rachel, Rachel Gray is not Rachel Bagshaw, I think she played
girl, and it's basically about a series of really terrible first dates and from one side
of the stage to the other until ultimately the people on the bed, the girl on one side
and the boy on the other side, realized they may be out to be together. So that is
also the show where Darren Tinker got a standing ovation for kissing an upper
classman girl, like we had to stop the show. Yeah. That was, that was a good time
had by all. I directed that show too. That was like one of the first shows that I
directed because it was a pretty easy, a pretty easy one. And it's good. It's a lot
of like character acting and silliness. And that's pretty easy for high school
students to. Right. And we had to play multiple characters that everybody got a
lot of screen time and there was no set. It was just like two cafe tables and four
chairs and then some weird costumes. Was that the one where the kid dropped his
pants? Is it that one? I don't know. I remember somebody in a burlap sack.
There was a boy in a burlap sack. Yes. There was a mime. Yes. There was something about the bear suck. Yes. Yes.
Stephen Bliss lost all his props maybe. Well, that was all the shows. I'm sure he will be a guest on this program. But yes, that was, that was a lot. I will let him defend himself if he ever comes on the show. I'm, I'm sure, I'm sure that he will. Um, so what, uh, so you were in the, we've been in the program for like four
years. Did you the whole time you were in high school? Um, I think I came in as a sophomore. So I did, yeah, I did tech please. And then, oh gosh. And then the weird sisters. That's a good show. And I got to, I think I was prop mistress. And so I made pot out of oregano. Yes. Which to this day, children will come and say, Mr. Lee, we think we've found pot in the prop hall. And I'm like, it's oregano little buddy. It's fine. Every year they just hide it from each other. The prop master's
doom. And then, yeah, I mean, if they just sniffed it, it's, I know that's okay. Other shows, so many shows. And then, oh, and then my junior year Fallon did a Midsummer Night's Dream and I stage managed with her. That was a good show. It was good. And it was all emo. It was like emo punk goth. And Gavin was a little changeling boy. I forgot about that. He was. And then my senior year, I just directed everything. You did.
Oh, I did the brother. No, did I do the Brothers Grimm Spectaculathon? I think I acted in the Brothers Grimm Spectaculathon. With all the fairy tales in it. Yeah, I was Snow White. And I was married to Spencer Lawler. And, and then I, we did, I did that one show about, um, it was all like trying to be a throwback to the Greek tragedies. And it was about the chick and her brother died.
Oh, the one that Madison was in? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then she knocked the podium off and hit somebody in the heart. The podium she did. Yeah, that was, that was not our finest hour. It's okay. The lady got stitches in her head and she's fine now. It's okay. It wasn't my fault. It wasn't really anybody's fault. The podium didn't go without, so to go in the dark. So.
And then we did, Miss Nelson is missing
and bought that cool talk board.
We did it.
And we did it for all the little kids
and that was fun.
Yes, I think that was the first little kid show
that we did.
It was, yeah.
That was, and then we figured out that those,
if you can do a children's show,
those are gonna be your best audiences
because it doesn't matter what you do.
They're gonna be so-
They love it so much.
Because they see older kids
and possibly older siblings or cousins or neighbors
or whatever, and they just think it's like
the Beatles are on stage.
Yeah.
I remember in that show,
I actually hit my head on something hard enough
to cut my head open.
And at the end of the show,
when I was doing tech,
at the end of the show,
we had a little talk back
and this little bitty kid raised their hand
and he said,
did you make any mistakes?
And I said, did you see any mistakes?
And he said, no.
And I could feel the blood, like.
You were like, see, it was fine.
Everything is fine.
Is that a child talking to me?
I can't, my vision is double.
So it's okay.
I did not require stitches for that show.
Drama is a very physical sport, isn't it?
Here's the thing.
The entire time that I directed,
I don't think I ever had to.
I never got physically injured.
I might not as a director.
Now the person who has now taken over
the program that I left,
I think she like broke her ankle or something.
Like the middle of a vortex last year.
So she didn't keep the streak alive,
but me personally.
So when you left the program,
did you think you were gonna do theater professionally
or theater in some capacity after you graduated?
When I left you?
No.
So I think something that has really changed
from then to now is like,
kids come into high school and are in these programs
and it's a legitimate thing that is presented to them.
Like you can leave high school
and go and do this thing that you really love.
And I don't think that that was a thing
that I would have thought at that time
was the thing that I could do.
It was the fun thing that I liked to do,
but I was very instilled with like,
you have to do something that's very stable
and very real.
It's a real job.
A real job.
Yes.
And so no, I think when I left,
I wanted to do it.
I wanted to keep in the realm of educational theater
because I knew I was gonna be a teacher.
So there's this really funny story
about how when I was at Governor's Scholar,
you had to, they had us write our own obituaries.
And I did this whole like prophecy moment
where I was like,
and then she ran this theater program for all of these years
and was amazing and all of this, that and the other.
And so like in high school,
I wanted to be running a high school theater program
because I loved theater,
but I didn't think that I could pursue theater as itself.
When I wrote my GSP application,
I told them I was going to run a high school theater program,
but also people were telling me,
this is not real.
You can't do this for a living,
which is why I got the English degree,
which you also-
But that's so different.
That's so different now.
Like now I think they're doing it.
Like they're going and they're having
really successful careers in performing arts
or music business or things like that.
And so I think that's awesome.
And a testament to some changes,
but also just the power of good theater educators.
Like if you're a good theater educator,
your kids are going to leave and feel like
if this is the thing that they want to do
that they can do it and they're going to know how.
Yes.
And I think that's what I've seen from your kids
and from your program.
So you left us and then you went on
to study English secondary education.
And then what did you do?
And then I've taught some kids some English.
And then I went to Warren County schools
at Greenwood High School
and they already had a very well established musical program.
Not so much a theater program.
Like they, I don't even know what the time,
I guess they did have theater classes,
but they weren't doing any kind of theater
outside from the yearly musical.
But it was like for many years before me,
it was like top-notch.
It had this reputation, like it was amazing.
And then whenever that school split,
then they lost their directors to the new high school.
So they were like rebuilding again.
And so, and I guess like the three or four years
before I came to Greenwood,
they had had maybe two or three different directors.
The program, as it was when I got there
was really just in a rebuilding place.
Yeah, so the first year I was there,
I was an English teacher
and they gave me the theater classes.
So I focused on what I, like my ultimate goal was like,
I need that musical program to be mine,
but I was just buying out my time.
And so I did my theater classes
and did it very similarly to what I had with you.
So we did, they were semester-long classes
and we culminated and did a class play at the end
and we rehearsed at school.
And I don't think the first year I was there,
I don't think I did any kind of after-school play.
I think I just worked on building the class
and figuring out what I was doing.
And then at the end of my first year,
the director, there was a brand new choir teacher.
So it was her first year helping with the musical.
And there was another English teacher
who was helping with the musical
who had been doing it for a couple of years
and her father passed.
She ended up needing to go and be with her family
for a few weeks.
And the choir teacher was like,
I don't know what I don't know about theater at all.
And she, we had never even spoken.
She just knew I was the theater teacher.
And she was like, please, please come help
because I don't know what's happening
and I can only teach people how to sing.
That was so hard.
So what part were they into the process
of the rehearsal process?
So they were about a month away from tech
when the-
So that was Cinderella?
Was that what that show was?
And this was Cinderella, yeah.
Came in and that was real tricky
just because I didn't wanna undermine anything
that had already been done
and be very respectful of the work that they were doing.
But it also was like, I don't want them to stall
and they're a month from the show
being put up or whatever.
So I did the best I could and I built the carriage.
That's what I was thinking,
you guys built a carriage for that show.
It was pretty cool.
And so I did that then the next year,
or at the end of that year, I guess,
the English teacher who had been doing it was like,
I don't really wanna do this anymore.
And so then that's when I took over the program
with my co-director who was that choir teacher.
I don't know, which can I talk to that show?
Some kid, I have so many.
And the only complaint they had was
they were very excited to see Gus Gus, the mouse.
Oh, yeah. And he didn't show up
and they didn't, they were very unhappy.
Rogers and Hammerstein left him right out of the script.
So yeah, that's interesting
because I've never had to come in the middle of a show
and in the middle of a program,
middle of a show and be like,
hello, it's me now.
And none of the kids knew me
because I taught ninth grade
and those were the kids in the musical
were upperclassmen.
But it was also so cool
because then I got to make all these relationships
with the seniors of that group
who I wouldn't have even known otherwise.
And like one of them ended up naming Willow.
Like she named my child.
One, two of them, we just got,
I just thought there was a small group
that I got super close to.
It was like Michael and Shelby
and Ellie and Isaac and Sophia.
And I was really close to this crew.
And so Shelby and Michael got married a few years ago
and they just had their first baby.
So I was like at their wedding
and I would have had no relationship
at all with those people
if I had not just been called in at the end of Cinderella.
So that was super cool.
And that is a massive benefit
that you won't see the very beginning
if you start a program or come into a program
that this is family.
Like once you're in the drama family,
I've been around for your kids being small
and growing up and there's lots of other,
it's kind of cool now that I'm teaching the kids
of kids that were in the program,
but you guys are family
and there's that connection
no matter where you go and what you choose to do.
And that's like universal across the programs.
And my daughter does community theater
with Skypack and PTK.
And this is not something that I have taught her,
but she'll be like, I have so many theater families
and they're all so unique.
And so there's always like a vibe
and there's a culture of it.
But anytime people are doing theater together,
it's like a bond that surpasses anything else.
And so I'll see kids,
even kids who I maybe just had in theater class
and they didn't really end up doing afterschool shows
or musicals, but they'll still be like,
that theater class,
like that was something so special to them.
Felt very connected to it, even if, yeah.
So that's a really cool,
that's a really cool part about being a theater educator.
It really is, it really is.
How long were you,
did you run the theater program at Greenwood?
Let's see, 2015, cause that's when I got pregnant.
So 2015, and then I ended it on another pregnancy.
So 2015 to 2022 is how long I did musicals there.
And that was the big thing at Greenwood was the musicals.
But we also did, so starting in 2016,
so I don't know, is that like eight or nine years, I guess.
And so we did, we started to do a fall straight play
and then a spring musical.
It was just, we had a really hard time
getting the fall shows up.
We did them and we did awesome stuff.
Like we did Shakespeare Bridge twice.
We did the importance of being earnest.
Earnest, yeah.
Yeah, we did Midsummer.
We did a Romeo and Juliet that the,
we put it in like 1944 and it was really cool.
And we did, I don't know, we did all kinds of,
and they were good and like fairly well attended
for what they were.
But I struggled casting them
cause it was also marching band season.
Yes.
And so you compete with these things.
And because they weren't the musical
and they didn't have like a 20 year reputation
preceding them, you know, for the musical,
kids would bend a little on their other obligations.
Like, eh, I'd rather do musical than this,
but I never got that kind of buy-in for the fall show.
But they were good and I was proud of what we did
and the kids who were a part of it was great.
And we were able to make quite a bit of money for,
and I used the money from the fall shows
to kind of keep what we did in class up and running.
So buying rights and props and all that stuff.
Right, right.
So that's one thing is that your budget at Greenwood is,
for the musicals was way bigger
than anything we've ever done down here.
But not in the beginning.
Okay.
So when I inherited the program, we were in the red.
Oh, and they were letting you work in the red.
I mean, we were, I mean, it was a couple hundred bucks.
It wasn't like we were like thousands of dollars
in the red, but yeah,
we were not making money on shows when I first got there.
When I left the program, they had tens of thousands of dollars.
You're so cool.
So how did you do that?
So they had a few good things already in place
and it's easier too, because I was in a bigger community.
I was in a bigger community,
but they would do ad sales
for their program was a huge thing.
So we started out and we would really focus on that.
And they had a couple of other fundraisers
that were just things they did every year.
They sold chocolate and they sold candles and whatever.
So we kind of really assess for the first couple of years
what was working and not working.
And we fundraised with what they were doing.
And then we learned that when the quality
of your show improves, your ticket sales improves.
And so really most of our money ended up coming
from ticket sales eventually.
We did some really cool things
like we created a sponsorship program.
So it was a leveled program.
And we named it cool things depending
on the show that we were doing.
But you could get kickbacks.
So we would have companies like Scott Waste
who would give a pretty good amount of money.
And then we would send them 10 tickets or 15 tickets.
And they'd had their name on the cover
and we'd mentioned them in the curtain notes.
Or sometimes it was like,
I think the lowest realm was like $150
and you got a half page ad and one ticket or something.
And so I was really skeptical doing that at first
because our ad sale costs were always like $30, $50 a hundred
for a full page.
And to me personally, I'm like,
God, a hundred dollars is a lot of money
to have your name on a page of a program.
But then what I realized is that when you ask people
for money, they will give it to you if they have it.
Like people in the community are eager
to support the kids in the community.
The first year we did the sponsorship program
I don't think we ended up getting like the highest
but the second year we got a $2,000 sponsorship.
Oh, wow.
And that was huge.
And then if you get others at the $700 level,
we got several set or like families would go together
as family groups and grandparents and aunts and uncles
and moms and dads and they would all go together
to get like a big sponsorship.
And they were gonna pay for their tickets anyway.
So they would get those kickbacks and whatever.
So that was something huge.
And then we also tried to look at fundraisers
that were not really on the other people's radars.
Like my favorite one that we did,
I think they still do it, I don't know
but we would do flamingo flocking.
So we bought a flock of yard flamingos.
I have heard of this.
Yeah, and then people could pay $25
to have the students flock someone's yard.
And you could also buy insurance
so that your yard didn't get flocked.
Yes, yes.
So like all of our school administrators
would always buy the insurance
because they didn't want the kids coming to their house.
And so we were like, okay, well, that's a solid $150
in the bank because none of the principals
are gonna love to get into their house, you know,
or whatever.
And so things that we started doing,
we did a pancake breakfast a couple of times.
We've got things donated.
It really though varied depending on the kids that we had
and the parent involvement that we had.
And there were some years when that was high
and some years when it was low.
And so we tried to just stay really open
to what we felt like we could handle as directors
because it was only two of us.
And we were doing all of the things.
So, you know, we didn't have like a fundraiser person.
It was just us.
And that's typical in theater programs.
And so when we had a lot of parent support
and then we were able to do some of those cool
and more like unique things.
And then when we didn't, we didn't.
But yeah, we really worked hard
and fundraised and focused on the quality of the show.
We also started doing our school day performance.
So that was another way that we really increased revenue.
And I think the first show we did that for
was the Little Mermaid.
So we did not do that for my first couple of years.
No, because I remember taking,
we took our kids from Evans County School of Little Mermaid
and you sold them all light up flashing tridents.
And I think we bought all of them.
Like when we got in, we bought 40 of them.
And then they were like, you can't use these
until the king tells you to.
And like-
They got to kill Ursula.
Yes, but like two minutes in, I can see,
we were in the balcony.
So I can see down my kids
where one of my kids like, I can't turn it off.
I can't turn it off.
I was like, I knew this wasn't even an idea.
And I know those are floating around.
There's probably three in the prop hall right now.
Where's this from?
I was like, how do they still work?
You know, you say it's a bad idea
and I just see money signs.
Right, when the people all went on the bus
with the kids stabbing each other in the eye or what?
I had two toddlers at the time and they don't know that.
But yeah, that was another, that was a good idea.
That was a good idea that we had.
So like part of growing your program
is just kind of seeing like where's their interest.
And then if we knew that we wanted to do school day shows
that also helped us pick our repertoire
and some musical or theater snobbery people
may have looked at the shows that we did
and for the last few years and been like,
oh, well you did all like Disney shows or whatever.
But guess what people want to come and see with the family.
Yeah, well that's the money.
We did Thoroughly Modern Millie and that was a fun time
but not a lot of kiddos wanna come see the weird show
in the 1920s about trafficking white girls.
Yeah, that's right.
Good music though.
I mean, it's so fun.
Like the songs get stuck in your head for days.
It's a great show.
But when we, and we did Bye Bye Birdie
and that was a fun show.
But yeah.
And all the telephones in America,
all the corded telephones in Warren County,
you end up with them.
And we tied them to their shoes
so they could do all these cool choreography.
Yeah, that was really cool.
And Jason and Jason's dad made those boxes for me.
Yes.
And also I think Alan helped.
So that was-
And they made the kitchen for Mary Poppins in the bedroom
so you could get all the magic stuff from Mary Poppins.
Those little boxes, which I think they still use for things.
But when we started doing, like we did Mermaid
and then we did Newsies
and then we did Well, Little Lemon, which was the COVID year
and it was a beautiful and great show.
But that was, it really was.
I loved that show.
Cause I had never seen it before
and I really loved that novel.
And I thought, I don't wanna hate this, but I'm scared.
And then I was like, like the thing with the kite,
I was like, oh my God.
Oh yeah.
And then the next year we did SpongeBob.
And so all of those shows,
we could do a school day performance with the littles.
So you have a problem that I'm sure the people have
that I don't have in that you have to get,
to do the musical because yours are such huge productions.
You have to go to a different location for your theater
over at the local university, at West Kentucky University.
So how does that work?
Like how much time do you spend at your school rehearsing
and how much time do you get?
And how does that work with getting everything,
all the people and all the stuff?
How's that work with having to go to different locations?
Cause I know there are other programs that have to do that.
Yeah.
I would say if you were to have Jeff Smith from WKU,
he's their technical director on your podcast,
which I recommend actually.
Yeah, no, that's Gavin's boss.
Do you know Smitty?
Cause he's-
Dude, he's Gavin's boss.
I love Smitty.
Yeah.
Like Smitty is one of my favorite people on the planet.
He is great.
And here's the thing about Smitty
is that he helped me grow so much
because I am embarrassed when I think
about the first show I did at Van Meter.
You know, I had done theater in high school
and at Western, I took several theater courses
and I was in like the black box theaters,
but I had never done anything like, yeah,
like anything with such grandeur as what Van Meter can do.
Yes.
And I didn't even know what I was supposed to prepare for.
So we came in and I mean, tech,
we had one week and, but we had to pay for it.
So like you can have as much rehearsal time as you want,
as long as you schedule in advance
and as long as you're ready to pay.
So we would be prepared in my program
to pay 10 to $12,000 for venue rental.
Oh, wow.
That was for the location, for all of the mics,
for the use of all of the equipment,
like fog machines if we needed them,
you know, special effects kinds of things, gobos,
also we had, Smitty was a technical,
he was our technical director.
He had his own people working for him for light and sound.
For what you get, it's like, it's, it's duh.
Yeah, it's worth it.
You're gonna pay for it,
but like you, it's not cheap to pay for that.
And so, but we would move in on Sunday
and then we would have tech rehearsals
Monday through Thursday and then show up on Friday.
And like I said, I learned so much,
like my first year, our tech rehearsals for Mary Poppins,
which already that show is 12 hours long,
nobody should ever direct Mary Poppins.
You know, there's that weird subplot
about the evil nanny in it.
Like, why?
We don't need her, like.
And also the part where the toys are dancing
and it's awesome.
Listen, it has a special place in my heart
for everyone always.
And we made enough money so that Mary and Burt
could like fly.
Yes, we did.
That was cool.
But also added hours and hours.
So we were in tech until like one in the morning
and I thought parents were gonna be there with pitchforks
and it was awful.
And I didn't know what I was doing.
And we did not really have sets that filled that space.
Yes, yes.
Because the set pieces that we inherited,
they used to do their shows at the Capitol
and the Capitol was a much smaller space.
So it was, it was awful.
And like, God loves Smitty
because he really was like, you know,
like this is way better, like quality,
like we rented sets for the, or rented costumes
for the first time that year.
And that really improved production value.
So we did what we could,
but there was also just so much we didn't know.
And he was such a guiding hand for me to be like,
this is what you do to fill up this space.
And these are the things that you need to know.
Like he'd be like, just terminology
I had never even heard.
And like, what do you want this one to be on?
And where do you want this to go?
And what do you want?
And I'm like, what do you think of these words mean?
What are you doing?
And, but then, you know, the more I did it,
I was like, okay, I'm ready.
Here's our plot.
Like here's where everything's going.
And I knew what I was doing.
And I remember there was like one tech of newsies
where we did, it was just like a dry tech,
but we left at like six or seven,
like it was still daylight.
And I'm like, whoa, like see how far I've come.
It's not 2 a.m. and I'm going home.
So it was hard though because,
so we would move in all of our stuff on Sunday
and we would assemble.
So a lot of the times we would build something
then we would have to disassemble it to move it.
And so then we would get to van meter
and then we'd have to reassemble it.
And then we would set up our prop stuff.
We would set up the dressing rooms.
We'd, if we had time on Sundays,
we'd try to spike things, but often we didn't.
It would just be hours of building,
especially like the more advanced we got in production.
It was a lot of construction.
For SpongeBob, we built our whole volcano of tires.
Yeah, were those actual tires?
Those were actual.
So I got them next to your house.
Like, I don't know, there was like this trailer next,
like right on the street that you live on.
And they had like a bajillion tires in their yard.
Okay.
I stopped and said,
how much do you want for all of these tires?
And the woman was like, I hate them.
And my husband's not home.
You can have them all for $200.
Oh my gosh.
Anyways, we built all of that during tech.
And so Sunday was always that.
And then again, the further we got,
the better we were at knowing like,
what do we need to do on each day?
So on Monday, we're just going to spike and set things,
let the lighting director see what the visual is.
And then we'll do,
we started doing a sits probe with the orchestra
the week before.
So we didn't have to be doing things
with the orchestra pit because we had a live pit.
So that always took a lot of time
when the kids hadn't rehearsed with them.
So we tried to make that happen a little bit sooner,
which meant paying the accompanist more.
So that was another choice that we had to make.
Monday would be kind of dry tech kind of stuff.
And then Tuesday we'd add,
we're going to do our choreography or singing or dancing.
And there was always adjustments
because our stage was not the right.
So when we did newsies,
we didn't even have room in our theater to rehearse
because our sets were so large.
And we had them in advance.
So we bought those.
You bought the whole set, didn't you?
From all the sets, the costumes, the props.
Which is like three stories with a scaffolding basically
was the majority of the set.
Three, three story towers.
The massive printing desk.
And so, but anyways, we didn't have anywhere to rehearse
cause it was a lot of like kids climbing up and down,
moving the big thingies around and running up and down it.
And I was like, this is going to be super dangerous
if we don't get to rehearse this in advance.
So that was the year one of our parents
found somebody who owned like a warehouse
and they weren't using it for anything.
And so it was on Nashville road and our dads built,
they could only build the first two levels
because it wasn't tall enough.
And so we could, and we had those two other pieces
that were small and rolled off and on and everything.
And so we rehearsed, we would carpool from Greenwood
over to Nashville road and rehearse
so that we had a space big enough.
But we would, and what we got really smart about
is like knowing the size that we had at the theater.
When we did SpongeBob, we knew we were going to have
certain things flying in and out.
And so we knew then, this is how much space we'll have.
So we would tape it down.
And so the kids got used to being in the space
that they were going to have.
And that's something that I didn't know before.
Like if you're going to be moving into a different space,
you're going to have to redo all of your blocking
and all of your choreography if you don't account for that.
So we got, you know, in the warehouse, we taped out.
This is what Vameter stage is going to be like.
This is where this drop's going to be.
This is where, you know, these things are going to be
so that they could get familiar with it.
And there's still some adjustment when you move
into a different space, but it's not as much.
And just being really organized and in good communication.
I think I was really intimidated by Smitty
because he's so smart.
He looks like he toured with the Grateful Dead, probably.
And I did not feel very,
and then I remember like the first time Smitty told me
like, good job.
I was like, just weeping.
And all of my kids, well, not Beckett
because I was pregnant with him,
but like Willow and Abel both slept through tech rehearsals
in a pack and play, like in a closet in Vameter
that Smitty would unlock for me.
So like when he said, good job, I was like,
I've really done something in my life.
Yes.
But it was a lot of learning.
And so when I passed the program on,
I tried to be like, here are your contacts
and here are the people and here are the things
because I was so intimidated by Smitty.
I didn't like want to ask, like I wanted so much
to seem like I knew what I was doing
that I didn't want to ask questions.
And then it was so obvious that I didn't know
what I was doing, I had to ask questions.
And I think, yeah, like you've got to have good communication
because he would just have me come in
and be like, these are the things that I really need.
And he's very like cut and dry.
Like there's not, this is what we're gonna do
and this is how it's gonna be
and theater safety and theater etiquette.
And, but yeah, be just talking to that venue
and knowing like the size of your space.
And if you are bringing in weird stuff,
like flying things that are gonna fly in and out,
if you have access to that,
like just know that all of that stuff adds a lot of time
at the end and you don't always like,
you're not getting any of that stuff
until a week before the show.
So you want to make sure you are really solid
on all the things you can control.
Yes.
Because you don't want to be having to fix issues
of like lines or blocking or just basic stuff
that kids can mess around with.
Costume changes, where's your prom?
Yeah, like all of that stuff better be solid
before you get there
because you're gonna have a lot of other things to deal with.
But there's a lot of benefits of doing it.
Kids feel really like for us,
our theater only held like 300 people.
Yeah.
If we wanted to have everybody in the school
come and see our show,
we would have had to do like four showings
just for the school to come.
Yeah, we have the same role.
It wasn't feasible.
So I loved having that space
and loved that we were able to continue to do it,
but it took a lot of work to afford it and to pull it off.
But of course you have more butts in seats.
So I mean, and like you guys were selling out shows
out there, weren't you?
We did for the Little Mermaid,
the Saturday night performance,
they were lined up like wrapped around Van Bier.
And I remember King Triton's mom
was like in the end of the line
and Smitty came out and he was like,
you need to hold, like we've got to count seats.
I don't know if we can get these people in.
And I was, yeah.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, the whole place.
Do you know how many seats that place has?
1,100.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
That's so cool.
And I was like, we have got to find somewhere
for Triton's mom to be.
But Triton's mom has to be in there.
And I think we were able to get everyone in.
Like we just had to scoot people together.
But that I think was the only show we sold out every seat
for the Saturday performance of the Little Mermaid.
Yeah.
That's really cool.
Yeah, it was.
So what is something that you took away
from our program for your high school program?
Like maybe even that's something that involves
like doing theater specifically, it could be.
But something you think was beneficial to you
that maybe other people might get out of.
It's just the theater family.
Like one of my former theater students works
for the public library in Warren County.
And I guess she's running a theater camp or something
cause she had posted online.
What's your name?
Ella Hagen, she works at the Bob Kirby branch.
Okay, is she involved with, is this part of,
something's going on with Capitol?
Maybe, I don't know.
Like I didn't even know she was doing it.
She had just posted on Instagram,
like a kid had written her a note
that was like, dear theater teacher, I love theater.
And I think this is going to be, you know,
and she was just like melting.
And that was such like a full circle moment.
Cause I was like, yeah, that's why we do it.
Like you do it because when you are a theater educator,
and I know that you know this
because like I'm hearing talking to you,
but there are so many kids who you just watch
like find a place where they really belong.
And that surely it happens in other places,
but there's also just something about the empathy
of the theater and the openness of the theater.
Like there's just something really special about it.
And so like you're going to have story after story
as a theater educator of kids just being like,
I didn't know I could do this.
Yes.
Or I was going through X, Y, or Z
and the theater got me through this.
Yes.
Or I mean, like even just saying this like kids,
like it's like a Rolodex in my brain of kids.
I'm having the same experience, yes.
Yeah, you know.
And like I said, it's not even the big things.
Like our musicals were very special.
And I was super lucky that I was able to do like the level
and the quality of things that we did.
But it was the same feeling as the theater family I had
in 2006 and like a tiny high school auditorium
at a program that was just beginning, you know?
Like the feeling is the same.
And I think that's like what the kids crave.
Like all of the big stuff is really cool.
And that makes them feel like special or whatever.
But like what they crave is the connection.
And so, yeah, like when the kids, one of my kids,
he's a social studies teacher now at Greenwood.
So he went back to teach there after I left,
emailed me a question about teaching, which is funny.
And then was like, sent me a picture of a note
that I had written him after a show.
And it was like, you know,
this is hanging on my wall behind my desk.
And you just don't know, like for years,
like when I graduated, you wrote me a card
and it was like, screw your court,
courage to the sticking board and you'll not fail.
And that was before Lin-Manuel put it in Hamilton.
So like, you were like spouting off McBeth quotes
to people before Lin-Manuel was doing it in Hamilton.
So maybe he owes you something for getting it.
But, you know, like that kind of stuff.
And when you're doing it as a teacher,
you're just showing up for your kids.
Like you're not even thinking like,
you're like, I'm just trying to put up a good show
and have a good time and love on people
and create this environment, you know.
But it turns into something
that's so much more important to the kids than that.
Yeah. And then you go on
and do all this work that you've done.
And then those kids go on
and just gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.
And that is just, that's all.
Because one of your kids is best friends with Gavin.
My Allie.
Allie, she, and like the first time I met her,
she was at Western, they were working,
I think they were both in the box.
And she came out and like tackled me
and she was like, you're at a good house,
what are you talking about?
And I was like, I know you.
And Gavin's like, no, she loves you.
And she was like, we've never met.
She's like, I know.
So, no, she's like, she comes out to the house.
We have different with her.
I went to her graduation, you know.
So, no, she's thinking he's with Gavin.
But, and I just think that's great that,
and this community just gets bigger and bigger and bigger.
And it's only good things can come from it, so.
Yeah. And it's like a, you know,
it's a legacy kind of a thing.
It is.
Like you've got your kids
and then there are stories, you know,
like the directors of the past or the people of the past.
And like people know, like,
oh, I had one of your kids at Upward Bound this summer.
And I don't even remember.
Oh, he was wearing a drama shirt.
Okay. And I was like, oh yeah, look, turn around.
And I was like, look, this is me and me and me
because they had it all listed on the back.
And of course he couldn't see what I was pointing to.
And he was like, are you old enough for the crucible?
And I was like, well, I wasn't a part of it.
I was in high school when it happened.
You know, it's funny because like he is so far removed
from that, but like the stories and the legacy
or in my program at Greenwood,
there were so many like rituals and things
that long preceded me.
Like they came way before me,
but just became a part of the culture
and became this thing that was so special.
And then it's been really cool that like,
since I left, kids will be like, well, we told them,
we still have to do blank, blank or blank.
Like some things that I brought in
that the kids then latched onto
and wanted to make it part of the legacy of the program.
But it's because of the connections
that you make with the kids
and they're still connected to it.
And that's just, I don't know.
Like maybe it happens on softball teams or soccer teams,
but it just seems to be something very specific
to me about the theater.
And I would have kids who came from sports
for the Little Mermaid, we had all these senior boys
who had been football players
so they can never do the musical
because of football practice.
And they were like,
we had three football players who did the musical
like Prince Eric and Triton
and then one of the members of our ensemble
were these football players.
Every stereotype you think you have
about these kids in these different groups,
and then they come into musical
and you're doing the happy sad circle
and they're just weeping.
Yeah, yeah.
This changed them in a positive way.
Like they felt and experienced things
with their theater family
that they had not previously experienced
even though they had experienced winning games
and it's not that to negate the times that they had,
there's just something different.
Different, and you only have to do one show.
Like it's like you need to be in drama for four years
to get back to one show and then you're booked
and they just, you want that feeling again.
So we get seniors come in and it's drama one
and they get to do three or four shows
and they're like, oh, I should have gotten here earlier.
I was like, but you can do the other places.
And they're like, no, no.
We can only do three years.
Yeah, it's not the same, yeah.
You can go somewhere else.
Oh, sometimes they do and it works out okay.
So what is your relationship to theater now?
How are you involved with theater now?
So I gave up the program when I had my third kid
because it was a lot.
Yeah, I feel that.
Maybe there's like way more bad ass than me
but I was just like, I can no longer.
And I remember there was a very specific moment during.
So we did SpongeBob and a flipping blizzard happened
in March on opening night.
And so like it really affected our attendance
and my ankles were like huge and I was very pregnant
and I just like, I had a panic attack and I started crying
and I was just like, I can't do this.
Like this is too much.
Just the situation where like where I worked
and then where my kids went and things like that
and Willow got all involved in all of these things
and Abel was all involved in all these things.
So I gave it up because I was like,
I couldn't figure out how to balance everything
and not have a nervous breakdown.
But-
I just have the nervous breakdown.
Yeah, you know, some people just choose that route
and I guess that's fine.
I don't think I should.
I think you made a good decision for you.
I am very proud of you for knowing
when you felt like this is what the time is.
And it was such a high note too.
Yeah, and that was the thing too.
I think it was like, I was at a place where I'm like,
I can't show up with the same kind of vigor
that I want to be able to show up for the kids.
So I could have kept doing it
but I don't think the quality would have stayed
where it was because that was the thing that was too much.
And so I left, but since, so,
but that last show that I did,
I put Willow in as Gary the snail and she was like five
and she got the theater bug, like hardcore.
So that summer she did theater camp.
And so now I'm a theater mom and that is so fun
because I get to do all the fun things
that help what I want
but I'm not actually responsible for anything.
The directors at her elementary school
they did their first musical her first grade year.
They had never done one at Cumberland Tracy's before.
And so they did frozen junior.
And I was like, I've got a little experience in the theater.
So if you need like help with anything,
so then I like actually just inserted myself
into the process and I hope it was welcome.
And I think that it was
cause they keep letting me come back and do things.
So I love being able to do that.
And it's also really cool doing it with littles
cause I'd never done it with littles before.
So I help out with that.
And helping her do all of the theater things
that she wants to do.
And then it's still a part of my life
because I'm never gonna stop going to shows
and I'm never gonna stop like staying current on it.
And I'm never gonna stop being connected
to the kids that I had when I was there.
So I miss it a lot, a lot, a lot.
It was probably the thing in my whole career
that I felt like the most fulfilled in.
But it also just was not sustainable at that time,
at the level I was doing it.
So it was super hard to walk away from
what was the most rewarding thing I ever did.
It was directing me.
And I would tell kids that every year
like in happy sad circle, I'd be like, oh yeah.
My God, like this, it's, teaching English is great.
I love that too.
And that's a whole different level, but it's just.
It's not the same at all.
So yeah, I don't know.
It's definitely like a hole in the chest
and especially at certain times of the year,
I'm like, oh, this is weird.
I'm like, oh, I wanna do this or that.
But what I'm doing right now and what I am is fine.
And I'm at this new school now.
And I don't know if this is public knowledge.
I'm gonna make it public knowledge.
And if anybody from the school that I'm at now,
I just won't say it.
If anybody's listening, then if it's supposed to be
a surprise, I'm sorry,
but they're gonna do newsies this year.
I'm gonna insert myself as much as they will let me.
Good girl.
I met the choir teacher one time and was like,
hey, I did that show.
I know some things about it.
Newsies, I don't know.
Maybe it's just like one of those,
like the emotion around newsies that makes it.
That was a very emotional time for people.
It was a very special group of kids.
You don't, when you're teaching these things,
you use plays or having these conversations
or saying try this out or whatever,
or here, I think you make this prop.
You're not thinking this is gonna stick with this kid
for the rest of their life.
And they're gonna, you know,
this is gonna be this thing that they're gonna hold onto
and keep this piece of paper in their pocket or whatever.
Cause the kids come back and they say things.
And I think, oh, that was really cool that I said that.
I do not remember saying,
we're like, here's what you put in my yearbook
or in this note at the show.
And I'm like, I am so freaking smart.
I'm so happy I did that for you.
Cause it wasn't like,
I'm gonna give this great impassioned speech
and it's like, no one ever remembers that stuff.
It's little tiny things and you're like, oh, okay.
That's cool, I don't know.
Oh my gosh.
I am so, do you think you might,
when your kids get older,
which I understand in your,
where you are the world seems like a thousand way,
but of course I'm sending the last one off to college
here in the fall.
So I will surely find more things to do.
Do you think you might get back into directing later on?
Yeah, I'm always looking for ways to do something somewhere.
So yeah, I even like for a minute,
I was like, maybe I'll stage manage.
Like they always bring in these college kids
to stage manage shows for BG on stage.
I was like, what if I just did that?
What if I was just like,
at least can I please stage manage a show?
But then I thought,
I probably shouldn't take like that money away
from a college student who needs that at the moment.
But yeah, I will definitely do something.
I don't know.
I guess it depends on where I end up.
If it's like a school program that I take back over
or what it looks like.
I've talked to other people
and like the Warren County art circuit
about doing some kind of community theater option
that presents some choices for kids
beyond what they've already got,
which like Bowling Green's got a pretty lively.
Yeah, yeah, much bigger than it was
when my kids were little, yeah.
Yeah, but you know, there are still I think gaps
and things that we could fill.
And I got to come back to it sometime
because it is my passion, but-
When did you figure that out?
When did you decide that was the thing you had to do?
It was like a specific moment where you were like, oh.
I woke up on June 3rd, I'm just kidding.
I mean, really just when you do it for the first time,
like I remember my first, I don't know,
one of my first class shows.
I guess it was before I started doing the musicals.
I don't remember, but it was Lord of the Pies.
I don't know if you ever did that one.
I've not done that one.
I don't, I honestly, I don't really remember much.
I was doing that show and those kids were so cool.
And then at the end, they were like,
can we write a scene on the end?
Like I was like, why?
They were like, it's just this alternate ending
and we want to do it.
And they did, and it resulted in like
me getting pied in the face.
And so that was the thing.
But it was like, I guess that was the group of kids
where I was like, man, it's those relationships.
And they were so bought in.
And I guess it was the first time too
that I felt like, okay, I really know what I'm doing.
Yeah.
So I don't know if it was a specific moment,
but definitely the first time that you,
you have a theater family that you created,
then you're like, ah, I have to keep doing this.
Like I can't stop doing this.
And you don't have to have,
you don't even have to like come from theater to do it.
So there's this teacher at Warren Central
who just got an English job
and they just put her in the theater class.
And she's like, I don't even know what I'm doing.
I know that she's terrified.
And like scared out of her mind.
And she has zero experience in theater.
And I think I have a book over there.
I need to give her that I was gonna,
but I'm like, if you put even one or two
of the right things in place
and you can build a community,
then you're gonna fall in love with it.
And I think too, like if you were just getting,
or you were forced into theater,
like don't shy away from doing the fun parts
because you're scared of it.
So I have seen theater programs where it's like,
well, I don't know anything about theater.
So we will just like study the shiz out of the history
and we'll watch a bunch of stuff
and then you write critiques on it.
You have to get it.
And like that, that sure will get them their credit
but you're not gonna get life from that
and they're not gonna get life from that.
So, you know, there is a vulnerability involved
that I know is easier like when you come
from a background of extroverted theater-ness.
And I'm thinking about this one particular friend in general,
like this is not who she is, it's not a personality.
But I'm like, play a warmup game with them
and see if at the end you're not all laughing.
You know, be brave to do some of these things
that you feel like are really silly
or not at all who you are
and just give it the space to grow
because you're gonna be miserable.
It's not that we're not,
our bottom line isn't that important
and it's okay in theater, in all the arts,
if you, you're not gonna get it right every single time.
And I know your shows have been better
the longer you've done it.
My shows are definitely better.
And so we tried stuff sometimes
and I was like, well, that did not work.
And then we do something different.
You can't be afraid to fail
and you have, and the kids are so afraid to fail.
Like they don't wanna try anything
where they might look stupid
or they might not do it perfectly.
And you have, and the part of building that community,
that family is you have to be,
it has to be okay for them to fail
and we have to support them when they fail.
When they get up and do their monologue,
their Shakespeare Madness monologue
and they just say everything in one giant breath
while walking back and forth across the stage,
they also get an applause.
You know, it's all just gonna walk.
They got up there and they did it.
So yeah, you gotta be able to fail
and let the kids see you fail
and it makes it easier for them to, yes.
This has been really, you were right.
We can't talk about anything for any amount of time,
till the end of time.
Some of these things I knew
and some of these I didn't know.
I mean, I knew a little bit about
what you had done over at Greenwood,
but I mean, I think I saw every single musical.
I think I saw all of them.
And every time I was like, oh, it's better.
Oh, it's better.
And I was just like, how can she keep getting better?
Like, this is incredible.
The learning curve was so incredible that I don't know.
I'm just, I'm really, I'm so proud of you.
You've just done so many great things in theater
and other avenues and conferences you go to
and stepping out of your comfort zone
and working with ESL kids.
And you just, like, you are a poster child for,
there's several of you that are like this,
this is what I wanted.
I don't, if you did theater, great.
But like, there's maybe a dozen out of the hundreds of kids
that have been in the program
who are professionally doing theater.
It's just so great to see you go out
and just bring this positivity, energy into the world.
And if we had something to do with that, then that's great.
Or maybe you showed up like that
and you got to work with us and make our program better.
But I think that's what theater does, you know?
It builds more empathetic, brave people.
Yes. Really brave people.
And yeah.
And it's like, it's not even hyperbole to say
that like, that people in the arts, not just theater,
but people in the arts just have this different level
of empathy and bravery that they bring into the,
like viewing the world through a different lens.
But especially in theater, I mean,
the whole thing is like bringing life
to other people's stories,
which means that you have to spend a lot of time
thinking about other people's stories.
I'm glad you got to be our inaugural guest.
I felt really special about that.
You should.
I'm going to put that on my resume,
inaugural guest on the I digress podcast,
where I think we maybe only digressed truly like one time,
but then we circled back.
So we didn't even digress at all.
Yes. No, this was all completely scripted.
Here is the script.
Yeah.
But I digress is a.
We've snatched.
Production.